Saddle Up! 1: Just a Good Guy

ChrisWelcome, everyone, to a brand new show here on the network. Matthew, I gotta ask you: Are you ready to saddle up?

MatthewChris, I absolutely am. I'm super excited to be here on the premiere show of Saddle Up! as we are going to be getting ready for—and it's coming very quickly, obviously, because Star Trek: Picard is just about at the end and Strange New Worlds is just right around the corner—as we're going to be following Captain Pike and the crew of the Enterprise before Captain Kirk. So, yeah, I mean, this is going to be, I think, a lot of fun.

ChrisYeah. We were getting ready for Strange New Worlds coming and thinking about how are we going to cover this show? And we decided, well, you know, I think the best thing to do is to start a new podcast dedicated to it. So this is Saddle Up! And we chose that name because, well, yeah, we do see horses in one of those early teaser trailers. But it's been well known that Pike loves horses. If you go all the way back to "The Cage," you know that he had two horses.

MatthewIt's true.

ChrisOne was named Tango. One was named Mary Lou. That comes up again on Discovery in "Saints of Imperfection." And I also think that we don't know yet what the story is going to be.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisBut if we take one line from "The Cage" and we take a line from that teaser trailer where they seem to be calling Pike back into service, I think it's time for him to saddle up once again to get back into Starfleet and to get back exploring. So, Matthew, you suggested the name and I thought, yeah, I think it works well.

MatthewYeah, I thought, you know, it just fit the tone of the series which seemed to be going back to and trying to bring us back to the TOS-type era where we're exploring strange new worlds. And that was very much about this kind of Western in space, you know, like the crew traveling to a new planet, experiencing new civilizations and definitely, you know, boldly going where no one had been before. And so I think that kind of pioneering spirit is exactly what we had Gene Roddenberry originally introducing us to in the original Star Trek.

MatthewAnd so I am very excited to see where this series will go. And I'm just excited about the idea of, you know, getting to have a show that kind of … it seems like the idea is to get less serialized and a little bit more episodic, probably within the vein of like an Enterprise or, you know, maybe even Deep Space Nine.

ChrisMm-hmm.

MatthewBut I'm ready for that kind of Star Trek again. And maybe the best way to think about it is it might feel a little bit more like Lower Decks in the sense of like there's serialization for the show, but every episode kind of allows you to have an adventure with the crew.

ChrisYeah, yeah.

MatthewAnd so that, I think, is great for Star Trek to kind of get back to that a little bit.

ChrisWell, I think they need to because there are fans who don't like the new shows like Discovery and Picard because of that extreme serialization. And they want to have more variety in the storytelling.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisAnd then there are fans who love those shows. I'm quite fond of them myself. But at the same time, I do miss that type of storytelling—that mostly episodic storytelling—that we had in past Star Trek. And so I think that for the health of the franchise, and as they continue to expand and produce so many new shows, we need that kind of show in the mix. One of the wonderful things about Star Trek these days is that there's so much Star Trek being produced that there's plenty of room to have both formats and to give more variety to fans.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisAnd it does appear that's what they're doing here.

MatthewRight.

ChrisThat's what they've said they're doing. And so we're going to find out. It looks like from the teasers that there's enough variety in what we're seeing that that appears to be the case. It doesn't look like we're seeing glimpses of one self-contained story over 10 episodes.

MatthewMm-hmm. Right.

ChrisSo that looks like it's going to be fun.

ChrisNow, to get the show kicked off here, as we saddle up, we're going to do a first episode here focusing on Pike, because it's wonderful that we have the other characters like Number One and Spock and Uhura and everyone who's coming back to our screens. But the reality is this show exists because Anson Mount's portrayal of Captain Pike in the second season of Star Trek: Discovery was so well received by fans that there was a clamor for a Pike series. We wanted a series with Pike and Spock and Number One on the Enterprise, and they've produced that show. And because I certainly feel Pike is the catalyst for all this, we're going to focus on him right here.

But a big question, Matthew, is what kind of Pike are we going to get? Because the way that season two of Discovery ended, you could feel the Enterprise is going off on a mission. And I think it set up the idea that there would be a series with this crew very well. But that also meant that the Pike that we saw in season 2 of Discovery is the Pike sitting in the captain's chair. So there's a feeling that we're going to have a continuation of the tone and the character that we saw in the second season of Discovery. But if you go back to "The Cage," and if you look at what we've seen in some of the teasers, I'm not sure that's the case. I get kind of mixed signals about how Pike is going to be portrayed here.

So you're very familiar with Pike from "The Cage" and the Kelvin films and the novels and all. What are your thoughts about Pike as a captain and a character?

MatthewOne of the things that is fascinating to me was the fact that "The Cage" was the original pilot. And you have a captain who … Pike is very melancholy and somebody who feels so much as though they're tired, they're worn out, they're kind of on their last leg. He feels like the pioneer who is just finally ready to get somewhere and settle because he's been traveling for too long, which is an interesting thing to have your captain be this type of person.

And that, to me, is obviously kind of the antithesis to then who Kirk became, which is somebody who loves being out there. He loves the unknown. He loves the challenge and the danger and the risk, you know. And I think that there's obviously places for both because Pike seems to be somebody who, when we meet him, has been out there for so long. He kind of misses that stability of, you know, a more sedentary life.

ChrisMm-hmm.

MatthewAnd so it does make me wonder what we're going to do and how we're going to kind of try and connect with canon and all. Will we kind of see that this is the Pike at the beginning who's being brought back to the Enterprise and asked to take the center chair again? Which, you know, with some of the trailers, you feel like that. And then other parts of the trailers, you're like, oh, it does not feel like the same character at all. So I really don't know what to expect from this Pike because, from the bit that I saw of him in Discovery, and I did see a few episodes with him, you know, he was kind of a very amiable character, seemed to be very even-keeled, a lot of fun, more akin to the character that we kind of knew from almost the JJ-verse, where it's like, he was just a good guy, you know?

ChrisUh-huh. Yeah, yeah.

MatthewAnd so I don't know. I'm really interested to see what you're thinking we might get.

ChrisWell, so I'm thinking about it, and it's clear from the dialogue in season two of Discovery—I say it's clear, it appears—that the Enterprise is at the end of that first five-year mission under Pike when the red signals are detected and he comes and they rendezvous with Discovery. And it's explained that the Enterprise sat out of the Klingon war in the first season of Discovery because they were off on this five-year mission.

And if you look at a few of the things in the trailer where Spock's concerned, for example, I feel like it appears like we might be seeing some events that are in between that five-year mission with Pike and then Kirk's five-year mission. And we also know that they have cast Kirk for season 2. So we will see Kirk in season 2. So I'm wondering if the time period is such that we're right around that point where Pike is going to be handing the captain's chair over to Kirk, either in season 2, or maybe in season 3, at some point during the series. I feel like this series, if it runs four, five, six, seven years, that at some point Kirk will be the captain instead of Pike.

But I'm just speculating on that because I'm trying to place where we are in time. And what you describe about him in "The Cage" makes me wonder if that scene in one of the teasers where we see him in the snowy environment—which I assume is Northern California, based on the fact that Pike is from there to start with, from California—riding the horse through the snow. He's got the beard. He's clearly been retired out of service for a while. I'm wondering if that might end up being a flashback where we see how he was brought back into service. But the actual series is set after the end of Discovery season 2. Because otherwise, it's a little hard for me to figure out how those pieces fit together.

Of course I can speculate and I can come up with the timeline, but it seems like a stretch for him to be there at the end of Discovery season 2—for them to head off to investigate that moon as they do at the end—for him then to be retired long enough that they're having to call him back into service and he seems maybe a bit reluctant, and then to see those scenes where it looks like they're on a normal mission and they're going from planet to planet. So how does all that fit together? I'm not positive. But it wouldn't surprise me if we find that those scenes are a flashback to how he was brought back into service. And then we fast forward to the mission that they're on together.

MatthewMm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it could absolutely be the case. And I think, you know, that would be obviously a very good way of kind of making it all work, which would be fantastic. You know, you do have to deal with that fact of "The Cage" and that attitude that he had. And I think it would be kind of a nice way to kind of put all the pieces together. And I mean, it's one of the things that, you know, about all this, it's hard because you don't have a massive time period to be playing with in the first place.

And so hopefully they have—and I will give them credit where credit's due, as we've been talking about on The Artificial Tango—they have really, I think, thought very hard and long about what they wanted to do with season 2 of Picard and even, I think, probably leading into season 3 since they filmed those back to back. This latest season, they really have, I think, nailed it so far as we've been talking and really put a lot of thought and effort into a lot of that. So I'm hoping they've done the same thing here with Strange New Worlds, where they have put a lot of thought into how they're going to make all of this work in the short amount of time that we have to play with, and I think hopefully they have.

ChrisYeah. Another thought about that and the short time they have, and this scene of him where he's in the snow and appears to be retired for a while, I think as writers, you should assume that someone's going to watch this series by itself and they don't know, they didn't watch Discovery season 2. They didn't watch The Original Series, the original pilot, "The Cage," and they don't know who Pike is and you need to introduce the character. And so one way to quickly establish who Pike is, what he's been through, why he's in service now could be to have that type of flashback to bring him back in, because it would allow you to quickly set up his character without needing to have an episode to explain in detail who he is. So that would make sense if that's what they're doing there.

MatthewMm-hmm. Right. Yeah, and I do think that what you just said is important, that you can't assume that everybody's seen it. But then at the same time, you're also thinking about the fans, too. So you have to make this work for both.

ChrisYeah, you have to find a balance. Yeah.

MatthewExactly. Which I think that the way that you just said that makes complete sense as to why, then, you would kind of have this almost like prologue that kind of introduces you to the character, gives you a sense of what had happened and then kind of brings you into where we are now.

ChrisYeah, right. That's a good way to put it. Yeah.

ChrisLet's go back to "The Cage" for a minute because, you know, you described how he was in "The Cage." And right now we're talking about the fact that he appears to have left service for a while. And also this line that I'm going to point out here really contrasts for me with the Pike that we see in Discovery, which we can talk about a little later. But there's that scene early on where Pike is talking to Dr. Boyce. And he says:

"I'm tired of being responsible for 203 lives. I'm tired of deciding which mission is too risky and which isn't. And who's going on the landing party and who doesn't. And who lives and who dies."

So it feels like at that point, we're seeing a captain who's been out there long enough. He's growing tired of the burden of command. And, you know, he's already kind of hinting to Boyce that he wants to retire. And then the scene we're talking about from the teaser which shows that he did that. And that Pike is, I feel, not the Pike that we see in Discovery season 2, although it might reflect a little bit the Pike that we see in the Kelvin films in terms of where he is in his position in Starfleet and maybe how his demeanor shows him feeling about the burdens of service.

MatthewYeah, I mean, it is interesting because the Kelvin-verse really, I think, creates a character to which, you know, he's the perfect father figure for the fatherless Kirk.

ChrisYeah, definitely.

MatthewAnd which is what makes that such a beautiful thing. And I think—I mean, we could have a whole discussion about what I think he does for Kirk and what I think that means and what they're trying to say about passing on manhood and all that kind of stuff, which is phenomenal, which is one of the things I really love about that movie. But I think Pike in that series specifically is kind of shown as being the quintessential captain who is taking everything that he's learned and trying to pass it on to the next generation and raise up another generation to do what he's been doing. And, you know, I think that's the dichotomy that's so kind of interesting to me about that Pike and then the Pike that we saw in "The Cage" and then the Pike we kind of saw—what I saw of Discovery—which is those are very different people, you know?

ChrisYeah, yeah.

MatthewAnd so that's where I kind of loved your idea that the beginning of the show is going to be about kind of pulling Pike out of that malaise, out of that melancholy, and back into him being in a place where he's healthier and more of the Pike we kind of see in the rest of the promo, where he's kind of fun, where he has a sense of life to him and he's excited about being on this journey and with this crew, which I think is a good thing because Star Trek kind of grabbing onto and holding onto and passing on the idea of a hopeful future, I think is important. And so I'm hoping that that's kind of where we see this character of Pike and where we see the show kind of go. And in all honesty, is to have a little bit of fun, which, you know, it is one of the things that I think that the trailer does well too, is like, it kind of feels like the show is going to be lighter, which is not a bad thing.

ChrisYeah. Well, many scenes of Pike in the teaser trailers do reflect a captain who appears to really be enjoying exploration and to be having fun. And it reminds me of a comment that he made in "Brother," the first episode of season 2 of Discovery, when he was talking to Michael Burnham. And it's a comment that he made that did not get paid off in the season, in the story that they told, which I found odd. But maybe he was just setting up this series instead. He said to Michael, "Wherever our mission takes us, we'll try to have a little fun along the way, to make a little noise, ruffle a few feathers."

MatthewMm-hmm. Yes.

ChrisAnd when he said that … this is the thing. He said that in "Brother." And then the next episode was "New Eden," which I think is one of the great Star Trek episodes of any series. And that episode felt more like episodic Star Trek. And I got really excited and I thought that was a great comment that he made to Michael. I love him as a captain in "New Eden." And then the story went in another direction.

But I think it's important to remember that he said that, because I think that the person who said that is the person that we're seeing in the teasers and is the captain that we're going to see in Strange New Worlds. After he comes back from this retirement that he has apparently gone into.

MatthewYeah, exactly. No, and I'm excited to see that. You know, Pike is a really interesting character, and I would actually like them to kind of deal with and allow him to be a nuanced character who has a fun side, but maybe he does have kind of a serious, thoughtful side to him.

ChrisMm-hmm.

MatthewAnd I think that that's not bad. I mean, I think that's one of the things that made Sisko a very interesting captain, right?

ChrisMm-hmm. Yeah.

MatthewAnd in many ways, you know, we don't need all of our captains to be action adventure heroes. I think having one who can think deeply and, you know, has a side of him that has felt deep frustration or pain or loss or any of those things is not a bad thing. And again, I hearken back to one of the reasons why Sisko is one of my favorite captains is because he feels like a fully rounded person who has felt deeply in so many areas. He's had pain and loss and suffering and joy and hope and all of these things. And it feels more like us in that way. And so I think one of the things that this show could do is to give us that type of captain again who contains multitudes, right?

ChrisMm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I think they are because that serious, thoughtful side, we see that in Discovery season 2. That's actually the character that we see for most of the season. We see that maybe lighter, fun character at the very beginning. He's a lot lighter, even when Tilly is scanning his hand and he pretends like she hurt his finger because of the way she moved it. And then he said, "I'm just joking." So he had that lighter feel to him. But then as the mystery began to unfold, you know, he became more serious and the Spock chase started and all that stuff.

But yeah, I think that—not to keep returning to the timeline and how it's all going to work out—but the more you and I talk about this, the more I think that the setting of this show being a continuation of Discovery season 2 probably works for me. If the idea is that the burden that he explained to Dr. Boyce in "The Cage" led him to retire, he had time to reset himself. He came back into service as a healthier man. And he started having fun again. And then he enjoyed the five-year mission they were on. And the wonders that they found in their exploration kind of revitalized him. Because that is who we see coming aboard Discovery. And I think, yeah, I think that timeline works for me. Now let's see if that's what they really do.

MatthewYeah. Well, I would be kind of surprised if that wasn't the case.

ChrisYeah.

MatthewI mean, you know, the people hopefully writing these shows have put as much thought into it as we have. And so I can't imagine that.

ChrisI'm sure they have.

MatthewYeah. And that's what I'm saying. Like, I just can't imagine that they haven't really thought through those types of ideas.

ChrisRight. Yeah. In much more detail, of course, than us.

MatthewExactly. So, you know, I'm interested then to see how the show plays out. I still wish there was less of a reliance—for me personally—on the aesthetic of the JJ-verse and a little more of the …

ChrisI don't think we're going to get away from that in modern science fiction, though, on TV right now.

MatthewYeah, I mean, I think there's ways to do it and they just seem to be unwilling to, and I guess, you know, okay. And it's easier, I think, especially with Picard because they are in the future from what we've seen, whereas this is, yeah, them making a choice and it's their choice and they can do what they want with it.

ChrisYeah. Yeah.

MatthewI just wish they would hearken a little bit more back to the original aesthetics. And again, Enterprise shows you can do that, but at the same time, do a different thing. I think there's a way to make this work that isn't just basically the JJ-verse.

ChrisYeah, I do think they've done a nice job of recreating the Enterprise bridge in a way that feels modern and updated, but still pays homage to the original aesthetics of the bridge. I think they've done a nice job with that.

MatthewYeah, yeah. I just don't love the view window. I think that's a choice that I don't love. And I don't love the choice that the uniforms all have to have like mini starburst things on them. You know, it's like—I think there's some choices there. It just doesn't seem … it's not functional. Like, there's no reason for Starfleet to have created uniforms like that. It doesn't really make sense.

ChrisYeah. Well, that's true. Yeah. Unless we find out that all those tiny deltas somehow allow the fabric to breathe more so that, you know …

MatthewExactly. Or there's a shield generator in each one that keeps them safe or something.

ChrisThat would be funny if every single tiny delta was its own self-contained shield generator. But then we would have an episode where—it's like the old Christmas tree lights. If one of them goes out, your personal shield doesn't work anymore.

MatthewYup. That'd be great. That would be fantastic. But again, like, you know, I'm looking forward to seeing what this show has to offer, and I think that Picard season 2 has given me the hope to see where this show goes. And so at this point, all we can do is just wait and see what they're going to give us and, you know, judge from there. So I'm open wholeheartedly to this being a great show, though.

ChrisYeah, same here. The visuals we see in the teasers, the places that they're going, it looked very interesting. And it's going to be—it's always fine to see a new captain take the helm. He's not a new captain, of course, but he is in terms of being the lead of a series where we see him leading the crew on every mission.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisI think it's going to be fun to see some of the familiar characters who we don't know so well. You know, we've got Chapel, we've got M'Benga, we've got some interesting connections to Khan.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisWe've got an Aenar, so a little Enterprise connection there. I think these things are going to be interesting as well.

MatthewI think one of the—and just personally, I think that's one of the things I might be the most worried about is that they've stuffed too many connections in here.

ChrisMm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.

MatthewAnd so we'll see how that goes.

ChrisYeah.

MatthewYou know, I think the utilization of like someone like Uhura and Chapel and all of these types of things feels very small-universe-ish, but maybe they work it out well. And so, again, I'm open to that happening, but that's my first reaction to kind of what we've seen.

ChrisYeah, I can see that. And as you know, I've been saying this for years, I think Star Trek suffers from small universe syndrome a lot of the time. Here, I don't know, I can make a case for it. I can make a case against it. I think my preference would probably have been for them to have one familiar character apart from Spock and Number One, of course, and then maybe pick up some others along the way.

MatthewYeah. Mm-hmm.

ChrisLike, for example, I could see Uhura coming aboard a bit later, not being there right at the beginning. But I said earlier that I have a feeling if this series goes four, five, six, seven years, that at some point, Kirk will become the captain and Pike will retire.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisIf they're already looking at the series as a transition from Pike's captaincy to Kirk's, they might want to have more of these characters aboard now to create a transition that in the end, when we look back at it, might feel smooth to us even though right now it feels like they've stacked the deck a little bit too much. But, you know, another probable reality is that so much of modern Star Trek is about fan service, and fans want to see these characters. And so let's give them these characters. Let's go ahead and put them on. You know, it's not a stretch that they're there, so let's just go ahead and give them that.

MatthewMm-hmm. Yeah.

ChrisYou've been mentioning Picard season 2. We're both quite happy with the writing on that season. And so if this is well-crafted, I think we might look back and find that actually worked well. That was a good choice.

MatthewYeah. Yeah. So it'll be interesting as we look forward to diving into the show and seeing what they have for us. We don't have too much longer to wait.

ChrisThat's right. We are recording this on April 22—for me anyway, April 21 for you, since we live on opposite sides of the planet. And May 5 is the premiere of Strange New Worlds.

So on this show, we will be discussing each episode after it airs, the same as we have been doing with Picard on The Artificial Tango together. And then after the run of the season, we'll see what we do with it from there—talking about what happens and series development and all. As I feel about The Artificial Tango, Matthew, I'm really excited that you and I have an opportunity to get together and talk about new Star Trek as it's unfolding.

MatthewYes.

ChrisBecause we've been podcasting together for how long now? Ten years, anyway.

MatthewYeah, that's a long time.

ChrisAnd we've always talked about existing Star Trek—The Orb, where we talk about Deep Space Nine, which we both love.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisAnd right now we're doing our 20th anniversary rewatch of Enterprise.

MatthewMm-hmm.

ChrisAnd we have the benefit of having seen all the episodes dozens of times, so we know everything that happens. We know how all the dots connect. And that leads to one kind of conversation. But this leads to a whole other kind of conversation that I think is really fun.

MatthewYup.

ChrisAnd I hope people enjoy following along with us as we go to Strange New Worlds.

MatthewI hope so. I am, again, I'm excited. And like you, it has been a blast, I think, to have a new Star Trek to be able to talk about. And so I'm ready to take this journey.

ChrisAlright, well, me too.

So everyone, we would love to hear your thoughts on Strange New Worlds before it premieres, on Pike as a character, where you think he's coming from and where he's going, and the portrayal that we'll see here on Strange New Worlds, how it connects with Discovery season 2, past Pike we've seen in "The Cage" and the Kelvin films. And if you want to share those thoughts with us, there are many ways to do that. One of the best ways is to go to Facebook and join the Babel Conference. That is our listeners group. We'll put a post for this episode right there in the forum, and you can share your comments with us and fellow listeners. And if you are already a member, you know how that works. But if you're not, it is a closed group, so type Babel into the search field on Facebook and it should come right on up, and then answer the questions and agree to the rules of the forum so that I can let you in.

If you'd prefer to send us email, you can do that by going to our website, trek.fm/contact. Use the form that you find there and choose to send to a show and choose Saddle Up! and that'll come to Matthew and me by email. And you can find us everywhere in social media under the username trekfm on Twitter, on Instagram, and everywhere.

And if the podcast app of your choice allows you to leave a rating and a review, we would love to get your rating and review for this show. That will help others find the show, learn about it, and bring new listeners aboard.

Now, Matthew, when you're not cleaning out the stable, getting everything tidied up, because you know you're going to be away for a while—maybe even five years—where can people find you?

MatthewWell, when I'm not doing that, Chris, you can also find me, of course, here on the network, on our whole other side of the network, where we talk about all of those fandoms we love that don't have to do with Star Trek. It's called The 602 Club, and I hope you'll join us there. We've got two bonus shows as well in the same feed, so there is a lot jam-packed in The 602 Club, and we're having fun every week. So check that out.

Chris, as you mentioned, we've got Warp Five and The Orb and then Literary Treks. Warp Five, we're talking about all of the episodes of Enterprise to celebrate 20 years of that show. The Orb, of course, we love Deep Space Nine, we're huge Niners, and so we enjoy talking about that show there. And then on Literary Treks, we're talking about the books and the comics of Star Trek. And then over on The Nerd Party network, you'll find me with two shows. One is a completed show. It's called Owl Post, and I did that with Drea Coffman. We talked about every single chapter of the Harry Potter series one chapter at a time. And then last but not least, doing Aggressive Negotiations with John Mills, and we're talking about Star Wars every week.

And you know, Chris, when you're not trying to find your way on this brand new Enterprise, where can people find you?

ChrisYeah, things have changed a bit since my first tour of duty, and I'm currently wandering the halls looking for Dr. Boyce, and I can't seem to find him anywhere, so I'm a little bit worried about him. But when I get done doing that, you can find me here on the network talking about all sorts of things. Of course, as you mentioned, Warp Five and The Orb with you, Larry Nemecek and I do The Ready Room from time to time, there's Interphase, a Star Trek Universe podcast, and I'm in all kinds of shows in the back catalog. So if you'd like to hear my thoughts on a wide range of Star Trek, just look through the catalog at those shows.

And when I'm not doing that, you can find me on Twitter where my username is cbryanjones, and I'd love to hear from you there, talk about Star Trek or Japan or whatever you want to talk about. So just hit me up there on Twitter. That's where I am most active. If you would like to help us get this show off the ground and keep all the other shows on the network going, we could really use your help and we would love for you to get involved in the network. To find out how, just visit patreon.com/trekfm. We really appreciate all the support that we're getting from everyone. We would not be able to keep the network going without you. We wouldn't be able to do this show without you. So thank you so much for your help.

Well, Matthew, we've got to wait a little while now for that first episode, but I really can't wait to discuss it with you.

MatthewChris, I can't wait either. So saddle up and lock and load.